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Talk:Aramaic

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Former featured articleAramaic is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 18, 2005.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
December 4, 2004Featured article candidateNot promoted
February 26, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
February 28, 2005Featured article candidatePromoted
August 3, 2009Featured article reviewDemoted
Current status: Former featured article

The aramaic language is one language with variuous dialects[edit]

The Aramaic language is one language with various dialects. Syriac is the best development of Aramaic. However the dialects of Aramaic are at the end one language.

Same with Arabic. Arabic is another language with various dialects. However it is one and the same language at the end. 89.205.139.73 (talk) 10:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Without any WP:reliable sources this is at the moment just an opinion. Would be good if you could back up your view with appropriate references. Thanks. S.K. (talk) 14:46, 29 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Famously, there is no objective test of what is a dialect and what is a language. It's a continuum. DeCausa (talk) 17:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@DeCausa: Update: A language is a dialect with an ISO-code and a (planned or existing) Bible translation. –Austronesier (talk) 20:24, 6 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Agree with DeCausa.
Also, as explained at Canaanite and Aramaic inscriptions#Languages this continuum spreads to languages/dialects with other names.
Onceinawhile (talk) 13:52, 5 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Name[edit]

What is your name 2405:201:AC02:B2AB:A0F2:1A2E:88F1:C810 (talk) 15:17, 17 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Aramaic is ONE language[edit]

Hello,

I find it weird that Aramaic is called Aramaic languages. It is globally known as one language and most sources confirm this. I would like to prefer to change the introduction and short summary. Beside that Syriac became synonymous to Aramaic. Not only the Syriac dialect (the Aramaic dialect of Edessa) which is also called Edessan Aramaic is called Syriac. The Western Aramaic dialect of Maaloula is called Suryon in Aramaic itself, meaning Syriac.

Arabic is also a language with different dialects but at the end it is still one language. Same counts for Aramaic.


https://www.amazon.com/Aramaic-History-First-World-Language/dp/0802877486 https://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Aramaic-Syriac-Language-Arabic/dp/1593330316 https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/journals/hug/5/1/article-p63.pdf Syriac563 (talk) 22:12, 18 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It would be good if you could read the provided references in the introduction. They make it very clear, that's not the current state of the linguistic discussion. S.K. (talk) 17:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The Smithsonian magazine mentions in reference to the Library of Alexandria:

"the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek for the first time, making it accessible to foreigners, as well as Judeans who spoke Greek and Aramaic rather than Hebrew."[1]

'Aramaic' in the quote from the article hyperlinks to the Aramaic page on Omniglot which states

"Aramaic is a Semitic language which was the lingua franca of much of the Near East from about 7th century BC until the 7th century AD, when it was largely replaced by Arabic. Classical or Imperial Aramaic was the main language of the Persian, Babylonian and Assyrian empires and spread as far as Greece and the Indus valley.

After Alexander the Great destroyed the Persian Empire, Aramaic ceased to be the official language of any major state, though continued to be spoken widely. It was during this period that Aramaic split into western and eastern dialects.

Today Biblical Aramaic, Jewish Neo-Aramaic dialects and the Aramaic language of the Talmud are written in the Hebrew alphabet, while the Syriac alphabet is used to write Syriac and Christian Neo-Aramaic dialects, and the Mandaic alphabet is used for Mandaic."[2]

Based on these descriptions Aramaic sounds like it could be a pluricentric language with approximately 6 dialects and 3 scripts.

Regarding mutual intelligibility, there is mention on this page's article already that many of the dialects are not mutually intelligible. 

IceCuba (talk) 15:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It might have been a pluricentric language at one point in time, but Glottolog classifies the whole set of varieties as follows:
Reference for the classification given is: Huehnergard, John; Rubin, Aaron D. (2011). "Phyla and Waves: Models of Classification of the Semitic Languages". In Weninger, Stefan (ed.). The Semitic Languages: An International Handbook. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton. pp. 259–278. ISBN 978-3-11-018613-0.. And in the introduction there's the reference to Gzella, Holger (2021). Aramaic. A History of the First World Language. p. 4—5. ISBN 9780802877482. The overarching concept of Aramaic, strictly a historical-linguistic abstraction, is made more concrete by various terms for the various Aramaic languages (or dialects, where we are mainly dealing with regional vernaculars without a written tradition; the neutral term variety includes both categories). So, in sum it's seen as a language family containing more than dialects. S.K. (talk) 06:02, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It is clear that you are an Assyrian nationalist trying to change history and pages in favor of the so called Assyrian identity (which is very important to mention).
What S.K. is doing here is called Cherry picking. Cherry picking is nitpicking from a tiny minority of sources that claim Aramaic not being one language. In the same way the Arameans page is totally written from an Assyrian nationalist POV they try to change the Aramaic language and Syriac language page totally too.
Aramaic is one language with various dialects. Ofcourse a language with a history of 3200 years has different dialects. The Arameans never unified their country nor their language beside the little kingdom of Osroene. Mainly because of their reason the Aramaic language never became standardized into one specific dialect. The most common used name for the language is Aramaic.
The only humans on earth miscalling Aramaic for something else are the Assyrian nationalists. They try to change history in favor of their Assyrian agenda. They also miscall the Aramaic language for Assyrian.
Arabic has different dialects and is considered one language. Moroccan Arabic and Iraqi Arabic are not mutually intelligible either. In example: American English, Scottish English and New Zealand English are all one language called English. Syriac563 (talk) 21:57, 12 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As the proposal for renaming the article to Aramaic languages was rejected and as most users here clearly oppose the new proposed treatment of Aramaic as a language family and not as a language, I have just reverted the lead back to the long-standing, consensual form. Dan Palraz (talk) 12:07, 13 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks. Aramaic is one language and globally known as one language. Syriac563 (talk) 16:40, 13 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
And yet, the author of the failed motion tried to revert my edit. Only such user wants to change the whole article from treating Aramaic as one language to treating it as many languages, and clearly such user didn't get consensus nor a majority of people in support of such proposal, so the article should naturally be restored to its longstanding form. Dan Palraz (talk) 22:46, 13 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Dan Palraz: You should read the sources AND the whole discussion. The result was not to move but even those opposing made the following comment: Oppose per AjaxSmack, and per the fact that 'Aramaic' is very commonly used to refer to any of its variants. It would help though if the lead would sooner and more clearly specify that it's also a language family. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 10:17, 11 August 2022 (UTC). That's what the lead section does and what was reaffirmed by multiple other editors afterwards by reverting the changes by Syriac563 and his related IPs. If you don't provide reliable sources I'll revert your edit again. S.K. (talk) 23:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
See also the section Aramaic#Aramaic languages and dialects which existed long before I made the proposal to move. So better get reliable sources. S.K. (talk) 23:09, 13 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Why don't you simply create a page about the Aramaic languages family? Per definition, there is no clear-cut definition of what a language is and what's a dialect; it is a disputable decision to treat Arabic as a language, the same way that it is to refer to Latin as a single language, etc., and yet that is how Wikipedia treats them, and almost everyone here above wants to have an article on Aramaic as a language, the same way as Arabic. Latin etc. do. It doesn't prevent you from creating a "Aramaic languages" article on the languages family. I would even be willing to help you with that. Best regards! Dan Palraz (talk) 13:43, 16 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not advisable. This would produce a textbook case of a WP:POV fork, unless "Aramaic" and "Aramaic languages" had significantly different scopes beyond the moot question of "one language vs. many languages". –Austronesier (talk) 19:45, 16 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I am highly against calling Aramaic for Aramaic languages or family. The language family of Aramaic is 'Semitic languages' . It is not language family itself! Syriac563 (talk) 14:48, 20 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Indeed. Very unnecessary to split a language because of political agendas (definitely an Assyrian POV to strengthen so called Assyrian identity). The language is Aramaic. It is known as Aramaic and most people in the world know this language only as Aramaic. Only Assyrian nationalists (Assyrianists) miscall this language. Syriac563 (talk) 14:44, 20 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You should stop to politicize this issue when multiple academic sources by people who do not have axe to grind characterize modern Aramaic varieties as a cluster of closely related languages based on criteria of linguistic distance. When you insinuate that citing this scholarly view is an "Assyrian POV", it is not very helpful in this discussion and violates our principle of assuming good faith. Insistence on either POV (Aramaic as one language vs. multiple Aramaic languages) is eventually fueled by extra-linguistic considerations, each of which are legitimate in their own right and deserve to respected. Language is a major token of group identity, and where definitions of group identities collide, WP obviously doesn't take sides.
Note that User:S.K. (a long-time editor in good standing) has been blocked for what is apparently considered "not dropping the stick". I strongly urge you to do exactly that: please drop the stick. –Austronesier (talk) 20:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Territorial distribution[edit]

could someone put some labels on that map so you can more readily see where in the world it is. Gjxj (talk) 14:04, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi[edit]

hi my name is Justin 2600:1008:A003:1A71:65B8:D636:DA2:A936 (talk) 00:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  1. ^ Magazine, Smithsonian; Lawler, Andrew (2022-11-15). "Is Judaism a Younger Religion Than Previously Thought?". Smithsonian Magazine. Retrieved 2022-11-20.
  2. ^ "Aramaic language and alphabet". omniglot.com. 2022-11-20. Retrieved 2022-11-20.
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