Talk:Gog and Magog

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End time[edit]

Looking over the Ezekiel material, I began to think you couldnt really say in the lede that Ezekiel places the timing of the conflict at end time (since I undestood this to mean "end of history" on earth).

Tooman (2011), pp. 94–97 explains the situation. In Ezekiel the phrase for "end of days" should more conservatively be taken to mean "latter days" (Hebrew: אחרית הימים‎, aḥarit ha-yamim. So it is not clear from the plain reading of the text that "end-of-history/apocalypse" is meant, though that is oftentimes the interpretation.

The section goes on to say that 20th century scholars tended to keep using "end of days" but loosely, "as a techical phrase for the eschaton, but without the apocalyptic notion of the end of history". I doubt many readers are aware of this. I was not, and was using eschaton and apcalypse interchaneably.--Kiyoweap (talk) 13:29, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

In Jewish eschatological thought of the 2nd century BC (which is when the Ezekiel Gog-Magog prophecy seems to have been added to the older 6th century Book of Ezekiel), the phrase "end of days" meant the end of history: After a period of terrible trial when the Jews would be oppressed and worship in the Temple ended, God would end human history and the Jews would rule over the world as his regents. This is what lies behind the Book of Daniel, as well as other Jewish apocalypses that didn't make it into the bible. The first 11 chapters of the Book of Genesis, incidentally, form a work separate from the rest of Genesis and date from the same period. PiCo (talk) 11:58, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

No, I think that some scholars fall into your camp, but others do not. At least that is what I read from Tooman. Tooman was a source that was extensively used in the article elsewhere, and not something I reached over and fetched from somewhere else to make my point.

Tooman talks about being careful to use "latter days" in translating the passage, so he must be talking about the originally intended interpretation, it seems to me. --Kiyoweap (talk) 12:14, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Rabbinical scholars may continue to use the phrase "end of history" so as not to tread on toes, and what they have done is expanded or extended the meaning beyond convention.

Tooman explains that he takes the term to mean "end of history-as-we-know-it and the initiation of a new historical age"

This is not how the average person conventionally understand "end of history". It ends, but a new historical age begins??? --Kiyoweap (talk) 12:28, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Dhul Al Qarnyan[edit]

Alexander the great was NOT Dhul Al Qarynan as Alexander was a pagan while Dhul was a mothiesist therefore i am removing him. Akmal94 (talk) 15:20, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

@Akmal94: I quite realize Alexander lived in a world of Hellenistic polytheism, and could not have been Christian or Muslim. Legends do contain many such contradictions or anachronism, you must realize.

I am also aware Dhul-Qarnayn and Alexander arent an exact match, however, that is generally the identification that is made. So that piece of information should remain.--Kiyoweap (talk) 14:00, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

BTW, I think there was a valid point to be made that "Iskandar" isnt explicit in the Quran, so it has been reworded to avoid it.

Unfortunately I had to sacrifice something else bcz of this, which is to point out that "Dhul Qarnayn" is an epithet (nickname), which is a point that even the objectors agree.

Alternatively it could have stated "Quran and other Islamic literature" to avoid this, but I didnt make that change before since it seemed to be excessive parsing.--Kiyoweap (talk) 08:42, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Requesting redaction concerning Dhul-Qarnayn as Alexander the Great[edit]

The excerpt in question as follows:

"In the Qu'ran Surah 18, Yajuj and Majuj (Gog and Magog) are suppressed by Dhul-Qarnayn "the two-horned one", a legendary figure derived from Alexander the Great."

As aforementioned above by Akmal94, it is a misnomer to declare Alexander the Great as the person Dhul al-Qarnayn. There should be a petition to edit/correct the given information regarding this as such, since there are no legitimate sources that proves it in any fashion or form. Any redaction is extremely suggested; hence, any number of unacknowledged readers could possibly render the information as credible. On the contrary, it is absolutely erroneous in context. In truth, Dhul al-Qarnayn was a strict adherent to the Laws of GOD; whereas, Alexander the Great was a bi-/homosexual, paganistic idolator.

The only valid text that mentions Dhul al-Qarnayn is available is the Qur'an–thus being the only canonized religious scripture in Islam. Therefore, the Qur'an neither explicitly nor implicitly gives claim in referencing Alexander the Great as Dhul al-Qarnayn. The cited source that pertains to the sentence that is in question is merely the opinion of the authors prescribed -->(Van Donzel, Emeri J.; Schmidt, Andrea Barbara (2010). "Gog and Magog in Early Eastern Christian and Islamic Sources: Sallam's Quest for Alexander's Wall. Brill. ISBN 9004174168).

—RekonDog (talk) 06:25, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

@RekonDog:, I very much understood that the Quran does not explicitly identify the "Dhul al-Qarnayn" as Alexander. However, that is not much of a point of WP:DUE weight significance in this article.

Fact is, numerous scholars support the Alexander hypothesis, some say this is the "authoritative" or "most commonly" made id.[1][2]

You are not entitled to dismiss consensus/plurality opinion of WP:RS scholars as "merely the opinion of authors" if you want to play by Wikipedia rules, whose policy is to rely majorly on such WP:SECONDARY sources.

I realize dissent (as per Hypotheses about the identity of Dhu al-Qarnayn), which can be addressed by inserting "arguably identified with Alexander" and that should suffice. --Kiyoweap (talk) 03:24, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Combine with Islamicate Language Articles or Spin Off Islamic Article?[edit]

It looks like there is an independent set of articles on Gog and Magog that all link to one another, but not to this English one. For example, here is the Arabic one. This other set of language-articles appears to be available in a total of fourteen (almost all Islamicate) languages. Curiously, both that set (that I just linked to the Arabic version of) and this set (that I'm writing in the talk page of) contain versions in Indonesian. They are, of course, separate articles. One (which links to the article that I'm writing on the talk page of right now) seems to be about Gog and Magog in the Judeo-Christian context, while the other (from the set of language-articles I linked to at the beginning of this post) is about Gog and Magog (i.e. Ya'jūj wa Ma'jūj) in the Islamic context. This also appears to be true of Russian Wikipedia.

What is the proper recourse here? Since the English language-article (this one) and the Arabic language-article (as well as many others in both sets of language-articles) cover both the Judeo-Christian and the Islamic versions, should we make them link to one another? Or should we take a cue from our comrades on Indonesian (and Russian) Wikipedia, spinning off a separate English article on the Islamic version of Gog and Magog?

Connorboyle (talk) 20:55, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

"Judeo-Christian texts"[edit]

This is problematic from a Jewish perspective as it implies continuity between the Tanakh and the "New Testament." From a Jewish perspective the Tanakh is not a "Judeo-Christian" text; it is a Jewish text. It would be better to have separate sections for what Judaism and Christianity each believe, with the Christian section obviously being free to reference its purported basis in the "Old Testament." Finsternish (talk) 06:12, 20 December 2017 (UTC) Otherwise, why stop at Christian? It would be exactly as legitimate to call them Judeo-Christian-Islamic texts, or Judeo-Christian-Islamic-Baha'i texts. Finsternish (talk) 06:15, 20 December 2017 (UTC) Or Judeo-Christian-Mormon, Judeo-Christian-Islamic-Druze, etc.. Finsternish (talk) 06:23, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Good article status?[edit]

This looks to me like a really good article. If anyone is willing to take on the work, I think it could be raised to formal Good Article status.PiCo (talk) 10:03, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Exaggerates the status of people quoted?[edit]

I was puzzled by this paragraph;

'Researches of professors and philosophers such as Allama Muhammad Iqbal, Syeed Abul Ala Mawdudi, who played important roles in British and South Asian politics, and American academic Abu Ammaar Yasir Qadhi and Caribbean eschatologist Imran N. Hosein, compare the languages, behaviours and sexual activities of the tribes of Gog and Magog with those of Vikings.'

Is it really the case that Allama Muhammad Iqbal and Syeed Abul Ala Mawdudi were ever important in British politics? Is the writer just trying to inflate their importance?Dean1954 (talk) 19:03, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Intro: "modern" and "contemporary"[edit]

I don't have access to the cited text, but it seems to me that we have "modern" and "contemporary" exactly the wrong way round, here?

>Many modern Muslim historians and geographers regarded the Vikings as the emergence of Gog and Magog.[6] In contemporary times they remain associated with apocalyptic thinking, especially in Israel and the Muslim world.

Can anyone check that the text is indeed referring to Muslim historians and geographers at the time of the Vikings, rather than now?

46.208.184.183 (talk) 19:08, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Good catch! Thanks. There is a logical non-sequitur in the articulation of the first sentence, regardless of what the source says. The sentence is referring to the time of the "emergence of the Vikings," and that cannot logically be referring to modern times. I have switched the two adjectives, as logic demands. I actually think that the adjective "contemporary" could be removed from the firts sentence, without impairing the meaning of the lead. Thanks, warshy ^(¥¥) 20:01, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Note: The text of the source is not available in preview in Google Books. It is available for search only. In searching the text, I could find only one mention of "Gog and Magog" in the book, on p. 28. But this single mention of the concept is not associated with "Vikings" at all in the text passage that is offered. So this source would have to be double checked or eventually replaced. Thanks, warshy ^(¥¥) 20:24, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

It is stated in a source that the Khazars used to invade from the "Land of Gog and Magog" breaching the "Caspian Gates", to be defended by the Armenians at the behest of Caliphs, but starting in the year 914 onwards, they were being invaded by the Varangian Vikings instead. Though the Armenians called them the "Ruzik" or Russians.[3]

No preview is available for this book on Google Books. So the passage and/or the page number for a citation cannot be verified. But thanks for pointing it out. warshy ^(¥¥) 17:17, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

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