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Talk:Helmut Kohl

Talk:Helmut Kohl

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Untitled[edit]

I removed:

Kohl's foreign policy was pro-USA.

that was recently added by an anomymous user. What is a "pro-USA" foreign policy? Is the statement supposed to contrast Kohl against Schröder? Then it's POV. djmutex 12:40, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

My guess would be that it should be seen as a policy of alignment with the countries led by the US including NATO, voting with the US in the UN etc. - as opposed to neutrality. It may sound bizarre that Germany could not be in the US led camp, but unthinkable it is not. 2001:8003:AC99:3B00:BDAE:454A:F795:B543 (talk) 06:48, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

counting[edit]

It does not make sense to start counting chancellors anew whenever Germany changes it's constitution. Germany in the imperial time, Germany in the Weimar time and Germany today is the same state, and Chancellor is the same position.

Sorry to correct you, but that is plainly wrong. The Bundeskanzler is quite a different political position than the Reichskanzler was, and the Federal Republic of Germany of today may be the legal inheritor of the Deutsche Reich, but is a new political entity. Can you cite some external publication that counts chancellors from the imperial cabinets onwards or otherwise support your position? -- till we ☼☽ | Talk 18:04, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You are totally wrong. Germany today is as a state identical with the state Germany before 1945. This is even verified by the Federal Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe. Citing the German Wikipedia article de:Deutschland: Das Bundesverfassungsgericht hat aber 1973 festgestellt: »Die BRD ist nicht 'Rechtsnachfolger' des Deutschen Reiches, sondern als Staat identisch mit dem Staat 'Deutsches Reich'«.

Please note that this is the English Wikipedia. In English the leader of the German government is simply called Chancellor, and we do not have the difference between Reichskanzler and Bundeskanzler, a difference which in an English context is rather unimportant (note also that Bismarck used the title Bundeskanzler during the period of the Norddeutscher Bund). Other countries have also changed constitutions as well as the exact formal titles of their prime ministers or head-of-states etc. If we should make such differences, we would make a horrible chaos, and the system would be very misleading and unhelpful. Details regarding the German constitution and history are to be described in separate articles. All German Chancellors are listed in the article Chancellor of Germany as well as the Category:German chancellors, and I would like to make a meaningful order system from Bismarck to Schröder. Starting numbers anew for the "Weimar Republic" and the "Bonn Republic" is unencyclopedic Hajduk

I wouldn't say that quoting wikipedia articles is proof for something ;-). I don't believe that you really suggest that the difference between "Reichskanzler" and "Bundeskanzler", between "Deutsches Reich" und "Bundesrepublik" are so small that even such a simple thing as changing the language from German to English makes suddenly Schröder not the 7th Bundeskanzler, but the 33rd what-ever-"Kanzler". I don't know if you are familiar with German politics, but putting the chancellors of the BRD in a direct lineage with the Deutsches Reich politicians is just silly. And how do you count Erich Honecker? And why do you start with Bismarck (if that is the starting point), and not with the cabinet positions in the Holy Roman Empire? Please revert your changes! -- till we ☼☽ | Talk 22:00, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
P.S.: Maybe putting them all in the article Chancellor of Germany and the category German chancellors isn't quite so good an idea, too.

The state now known as Germany was established in 1871. According to the German Constitutional Court. I start with Bismarck because he was the first Chancellor of Germany. The Holy Roman Empire was a different state. And Erich Honecker is not relevant here. He never had a position in Germany, except as a jailed traitor (a "quisling") after the liberation. Soviet occupation puppet regimes has nothing to do with the legitimate government of Germany. I have now included both the numbers when counting all chancellors, and the numbers when counting the current 1949 constitution only. Hajduk

Sound's like a right-wing POV to me. -- till we ☼☽ | Talk 08:27, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This is clearly pushing of a POV. Certainly one might argue that the state founded in 1871 ceased to exist in 1945, and that the two states created in 1949 were both new creations. Whatever the official position of the German Constitutional Court, this is probably closer to what de facto happened. john k 03:24, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Hadjuk is right about the legal identity of the German national state founded in 1871 (or rather 1867) with the Federal Republic (Maybe one should distinguish between "national state" and "state" as an administrative entity (equalling the American usage of government). But it doesn't matter. There is no continous counting of Chancellors from Bismarck to the present (sometimes the lengths of terms are compared). I don't know whether (or how) they counted them in the Kaiserreich or the Weimar Republic. If a counting is used, it can only start with Adenauer (but even such a counting is not very common).
He is clearly wrong about Honnecker being without position, but that doesn't concern any counting, since he wasn't Chancellor (or even the Eastern equivalent: chairman of the ouncil of ministers).
Another problem with the numbering is that it includes people who never officially used the title "Chancellor" as well, like Philipp Scheidemann or Count Krosigk or did not really hold that office effectively like Goebbels.
Str1977 00:44, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

What to do about "Personality" section[edit]

"Kohl is known as a very arrogant and egoistic person who still overestimates his work and historical role. When a journalist asked him what he knew about illegal party finances he replied: "For you I'm still Dr Kohl" (he was addressed by "Mr Kohl"). He was never able to handle criticism and to recognize own mistakes, instisting that he was the greatest statesman ever. In fact he believes that german reunification was his own personal masterpiece, ignoring the development of the Soviet Union and the GDR in the 80's that led to reunification." I'm reverting the article back to before this section was plopped in, because it's blatantly POV and trolling/vandalism. If I messed up by doing this, let me know. I'm still trying to get a feel for registered editing. --Sporkot 10:48, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

When I created this section I did not mean to publish my personal opinion. I come from Germany and here it's much easier to see this side of Helmut Kohl because he's not only the well-known elderstatesman as you perhaps see him from the distance. His arrogance is very significant for him and his political style. It's been a few years that he left office and therefore his character should be mentioned.

The doctor thing displays upstart manners, as my late father would have said, who was a doctor of physics. More significant is what he actually did, and you can form your own opinion by typing into search engines Kohl+corruption and Kohl+honesty.

This is POV and your view is not shared by all Germans of course. --Avatar-en 10:55, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

It has recently come out in docu by the WDR that industry bought off Rainer Barzel to vacate the position for Kohl. I was heavily impacted by the Kohl government not honouring the property guarantee of the constitution. My late father and grandmother owned land in the former East Berlin (Prenzlauer Promenade 191) but when freedom and democracy broke out there, the elf Aquitaine got the land via the Leuna/Minol matter, called Chancellor Matter by Kohl. They say there was a sale, but nobody has seen the sales papers or money. When Kohl was quizzed in the Bundestag he said 'I do not have to tell you the truth here because I am not under oath, and you cannot put me under oath." Arrogant? There was also someone who took him to court for violating the oath of office, but the court said it wasn't a real oath, just loose promise.

My late father also had a PhD. It becomes part of the name, and people are extremely proud of that when they come from a lower strata - it becomes part of their personality. Among academics it is bad form to insist on the Doctor in conversations. He also told me that it can be taken away when you are caught with malfeasance. The second wife would get a huge widow's pension. 2001:8003:AC99:3B00:BDAE:454A:F795:B543 (talk) 07:08, 1 August 2019 (UTC)


Well...Members of Kohl's party wouldn't agree with me, that's right. But in fact this is not my personal point of view, so keep it or delete it, but if you delete it keep in mind that you can't understand Kohl without understanding his character. And it's just as I described it, even if not every German agrees with me...:-) Good luck.

Just to keep that clear: I'm neither a member of the CDU nor a friend of a party with similiar interests. --Avatar-en 13:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Just FYI, I'm not German, nor do I follow German politics. I deleted your edit because it contributed absolutely nothing to the article. Baseless partisan accusations and (what I think was) defamation of character are POV, plain and simple. Just because you think Kohl is an egotist does not make him one. --Sporkot 22:37, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

It's your personal opinion to say my addition was defamation, that is something else. That does not mean my addition was my personal opinion. That's a big difference. To say something about a person's character is pov and defamation? That's very interesting, Sporkot. I think your sense of "political correctness" is a bit ridiculous. Do you really think it's impossible to mention a person's personality? Isn't it a bit simple to leave it out, to deny any discussion? Isn't it a bit simple to write about an important person like Kohl by just saying: oh, he was born there and held office from then to then, these were his cabinet members? I have to say your attitude is very superficial, think about it. Dear Avatar, in fact I did not mean to say you were Kohl's partisan. But I'm not a partisan of the SPD or any other left party, too. For me it took a few years to realize how Kohl behaves, so I understand why you don't agree with me. It was about two years ago when I saw an interview with Kohl on JBK and I first realized how selbstgefällig he was: "I'm the best, the greatest, I'm so underestimated". And his arrogance is so intense that you can't just ignore it. I know there are many Germans who just don't like him because of his policy, but in fact I was to young to get an aversion to him when he left office. And I know there are many wiki-users who just want to tell other users what they personally think of Kohl. But I am not, and I won't accept that my addition is just seen as "pov" or "defamation" or whatever, avoiding even to think about the description of his character. See some comments on his books: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] (some of them are full of hatred and some full of adoration, but what is mostly descibed beside this is his arrogance as I did)

Over one month, and many reverts later, this section keeps getting added. I've stayed out of it, primarily because I don't want to get involved in a revert war. I see no good way to make something as subjective as personality NPOV, but I'm going to let it be. If anyone wants to dispute what I've said or help me figure out how to better deal with this, please make a mention on this page or my user talk page, and for the love of all that is holy, sign it.--Sporkot 01:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, it makes more sense to flag this section as possibly NPOV and get a more broad consensus. --Sporkot 01:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

You can't refer to your own opinions - only other people's and if you want to make it NPOV that means you have to take all opinions on the matter into account. The only way you can include a personality section in a bio without going through reverthell and back is to do it by quotes and referring to whatever public debate there might have been on the subject. So - cite the debate about Kohls personality - make sure to find quotes from both sides of the camp and find the relevant quotes from Kohl. Make sure it's all verifiable and both sides of the argument is accounted for. May the Wiki be With us! WanderingWiki 19:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, here in Adelaide, South Australia, very far from the action, I have not spoken to a German/Ex-German who does not use a nasty word for Kohl that I can't repeat. When people hear us speaking German, they often start talking and he seems to be the most hated of them all. On the net somewhere, I found that the Soviet Union had informed the US they were going to let East Germany go, because she was too expensive for them. Apparently Kohl knew that and went to Poland so he would be closer to Berlin and he could make a historic appearance. That is why he fought tooth and nail through the courts to keep his communist secret service file away from public scrutiny. I'd just like to throw that in the ring, maybe someone knows more about it? Was it all a big charade?

Hi, the word used for Helmut Kohl might be "Birne" meaning pear or noggin which is his nickname due to satire in German magazine "Titanic" - the German article about Kohl even refers to it. No, Kohl definitely did not travel to Poland to be closer to Berlin - there was a film about his life on German TV two weeks ago and it said (as confirmed by himself in interviews) that he was very upset about the schedule of this visit as he would have prefered being in Germany at the time the Berlin Wall teared down. Unfortunately for him, the visit was planned months before and he could not cancel that as it was very important to improve relationships to Poland. On the 10th November 1989, when Kohl returned to Germany to be in Berlin that day, he had to travel via Copenhagen and Hamburg where he had to use a British plane as no German plane was allowed to land in Berlin or fly via GDR at that time - so it took more time to fly from Warzaw to Berlin as from Bonn to Berlin (although the distance from Bonn to Berlin was five-times bigger).

Well, the Stasi (East-German secret service) file of Helmut Kohl is one of the biggest mysteries here in Germany as anyone here would like to know what to find in it! Helmut Kohl will probably have his good reasons to fight up to the High German Federal Court to prevent the publication. As I would consider Kohl as a victim of East German observation (as they did with any high ranked West German politician) I would guess there are some delicate details about his private life. It is not a big secret in Germany that he had a private relationship with his secretary Juliane Weber. Recently I heard even rumours that he was bisexual (which I can not believe, but no one in Germany can believe any sexuality of Helmut Kohl), perhaps his Stasi file contains any information in that direction, we do not know. Things like this only would become interesting if the information in that file would have any political contents. Best regards from Germany YOG'TZE (talk) 22:27, 16 November 2009 (UTC)YOG'TZE

Personality and Request for Comment[edit]

I came in through Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Politics. Being somewhat familiar with German politics, i can certainly attest that Kohl had a stubborn style of leadership. However, during his reign this was hardly seen as arrognance, but simply as strong leadership. Condemnation of this style came only later, when his political star had faded and the accusations on the dirty business started to fly - and when his old opposition came to power.

So while there might be truth to the statement that he was known for a self-opinionated and stubborn way of governing, it goes much too far to say he is known as an "egoistic person who still overestimates his work". These characterizations are way over the top, and untrue. During his tenure, he was widely regarded as a great statesman (f.e. in strengthening friendship with France).

The paragraph further goes on to say: "In fact he believes that german reunification was his own personal masterpiece, ignoring the development of the Soviet Union and the GDR in the 80's that led to reunification." This is typical historic revisionism (perhaps because the author wasnt old enough to experience it when it happened?). Certainly, the geopolitical changes put everything in motion, but it was indeed Kohl who made sure that die Wende followed quickly and painlessly. Bear in mind that, at the time, there was a significant possibility that the GDR would remain a seperate state for some time, even if it were to become democratic. In fact, it was unclear what would happen with the entirety of Central Europe. Only with hindsight is it clear to see that they have integrated easily in the European Union. Concluding: if there has to be a paragraph on his personality (which i doubt, most information could be included elsewhere), it has to be more balanced and neutrally formulated than this. The Minister of War (Peace) 09:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for further suggestions or proposals concerning a better edit.--62.246.61.100 13:20, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

A bit late, but the lack of suggestions for a "better" edit probably indicates that there isn't one. Thus, it only makes sense to not have this section in the article. I noticed someone put it back. I'm reverting/deleting one more time, and that's it. I will not be dragged into a revert/edit war over something that so blatantly violates the Wikipedia policies--Sporkot 02:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, there seem to be few suggestions for improvement. I for one wouldnt know hot to make your section less opinionated, and my suggestion would be to remove it entirely (which I have done a few times already). If you are interested in making a decent section on his personality, I suggest you read WP:NPOV and post it here. From there we might be able to work out a consensus. Also, perhaps you should consider creating an account> It makes it far easier for others to contact you. Cheers, The Minister of War (Peace) 22:29, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I've given the other users a few weeks to make better proposals but the echo was a bit weak indeed. One reason for that may have been the fact that my addition was deleted - so it should better be kept as "NPOV" and linked to this discussion page ( and - as you may have realized - that's not the version I began with). I will agree to other formulations that will be seen as more neutral but I will also ensure that the essential of my addition will remain. --62.246.63.96 19:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm interested in rewritting this article. I think the NPOV-section really stands out of the rest of the article, which also is a bit weak. I will do the following
  1. Structure the article like the Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Christian Schwarz-Schilling. This would involve moving the pieces on his cabinets to separate articles. In order to give the article more structure
  2. Translating and integrating pieces from the German article into this one. In order to give the article more substance.
  3. Possibly creating a section Public perception and assessments" like on George W. Bush in order to give the criticism more depth/
Or something like this. Would this solve the issue and improve the article
C mon 22:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the above suggestions are very good. Such a section would improve the article greatly. However, the existing paragraph, though revised, is still unfit for addition to this article. I have, again, removed it. Before having been agreed upon on this talk page, said paragraph is unfit for inclusion. The Minister of War (Peace) 12:05, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, c'mon. As I told you, The Minister of war, it would have been a good idea to keep the section as long as its still under discussion so that other users may have a look at the discussions page. But as long as c'mon prepares his proposal I will not revert the article (under the condition that there will be a section "Public perception and assessments", of course- that's the reason I'm still here,c'mon:-}). --62.246.31.81 17:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I've finished the radical revision, broadening and structuring the article. A public perception-stub has been created, feel free to expand! C mon 22:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Pretty good!
Still, especially the public perception bt needs more sources. Specifically:
  • "Some critizes him for taking personal credit for German Reunification, while without historical developments in the USSR and the GDR in the late 1980s, reunification would not have been possible". Some? Which some?
  • "During the public hearings about the party financing scandal his inability to deal with criticism became apparent, when he fell out to one of the researchers, when he adressed him with mr Kohl, instead of dr Kohl." This needs at least one source, which probably shouldnt be hard to find.
Does our anon feel like digging for sources? Especially the first is too slanted to be left in there without a cite. I'd also love to see a cartoon with Kohl as a birne! The Minister of War (Peace) 09:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Longest tenure[edit]

I am reverting the changes on Kohl being the longest serving Kanzler in the history of the FDR. I realise that he actually is the longest serving Bundeskanzler, but I think it is illuminating to reveal he his the second longest serving chancellor ever. The link with Bismarck is warranted in that regard. Cheers, The Minister of War (Peace) 11:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Just to note, although Willi Stoph was Premier, rather than Chancellor, of the DDR, he held this analogous post for more than twenty years over his two tenures, longer than either Bismarck or Kohl. There seems to be a general tendency at wikipedia to act as though the BRD is automatically and obviously the one and only successor state to the German Reich. This simply isn't true - the DDR was a legitimate, internationally recognized regime which had an equal claim to be considered the Reich's successor. I'd prefer that we avoid BRD/Reich comparisons like this. john k 19:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

no, it was not, and it had not. It claimed (in the onset) to be an authentic expression of German democratic politics and thus authentically representing Germany, when it plainly and provably was not. Later it ceased even to uphold the claim. Sometimes one of the two sides simply is the right side.--87.166.166.234 (talk) 17:10, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
There is an important difference. The Federal Republic of Germany is claiming to be identical as a state with the German state established under Bismarck. The German Democratic Republic did not make this claim, quite the opposite. Furthermore, the German Democratic Republic had no Chancellor. I don't think a Soviet puppet dictatorship should be treated as equal with the democratically elected government in any event. -Minot
I might add that "BRD" is a communist or right-wing extremist propaganda term and that a state which such a name did never exist. -Minto
It's a tendency pushed by anon German IPs (who like to also claim that using East German/East Germany and West German/West Germany is "an attempt to create the impression of two German peoples"!) PMA 09:25, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually, (although I realise the discussion is long dead), I dont dispute that the DDR is a legitimate heir to the Reich. They were an internationally recognised country, and they were a successor state to the Reich. But dont forget that the DDR doenst exist anymore!
   Reich       |   +---+---+  BRD     DDR   +---+---+       |      BRD
Currently there is one and only successor to the Reich, and that is the Bundesrepublik. I might add that it is also the successor of the DDR.
Cheers, The Minister of War (Peace) 22:26, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Nope, this is wrong. According to the ruling of the German Federal Constitutional Court of 1973, there is no "successor" to the German state (prior to 1949), because the Federal Republic of Germany is as a state identical with the state 'Deutsches Reich'".

The German Democratic Republic, on the contrarary, did not claim to be identical nor a successor to the German state (prior to 1949).

Also, the Federal Republic of Germany is in legal terms in no way a successor to the German Democratic Republic. The GDR was abolished and its former territory reunified with the Federal Republic of Germany. As a state it simply ceased to exist. 

Germany (Deutsches Reich)       |   ----- GDR  Germany (Federal Republic)

Wilhs 14:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The DDR/GDR was the area of Soviet Occupation Zone, the other three occupation zones became the Federal Republik. I don't know who was first, but it was in a very short time frame. Whether the BRD is the successor of the DDR depends on how you look at it. When it came to property, like factories, land, houses, businesses, they acted as if they were successors, sold them, gave some away, sold for half the value (as it happened to my property), and the money stayed with the government of course. When you look at political prisoners they are not successors, for reasons of compensation or making their 'gap years' count for pensions.

Communist propaganda[edit]

I've translated "Verdienstordens der Bundesrepublik Deutschland", from the German article of Helmut Kohl, as "Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany", that's a literal translation. Someone removed it because it was "communist propaganda", but it's a literal translation! Furthermore I've reinstated the trivia section, not because I think this article merits a trivia section, but because the fact, that Kohl was the second longest chancellor, is rather trivial and should not be part of the articles introduction.

This is untrue. You used the name "German Federal Republic", a GDR cold war derogatory term. Trivia sections are btw. frowned upon, because they are utterly unencyclopedic. It is not "trivial" that he was the longest serving Chancellor since Bismarck, it is actually quite important, and the fact belong in the introduction, not in a separate "trivia" section. Wilhs 14:25, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I did not used the name German Federal Republic" but "Federal Republic of Germany", the conventional long form and a literal translation! On a more constructive note, I've integrated the former trivia section in the text, a compromise, I hope, between our two positions.

C mon 20:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

First: The article history clearly says "German Federal Republic" [7]. Secondly, you moved one of the most important things that are to say about Kohl from the introduction to an obscure place. What's the point of having an introduction when it cannot contain the most important facts? It has nothing with "trivia" to do that Kohl was the longest serving Chancellor since Bismarck, on the contrary it says very much about Kohl and his reign. Read the guideline for featured articles; a good article shall have a good introduction of a length like Pope John Paul II Wilhs 14:28, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

architect of the German Reunification[edit]

I have changed this passage because I dont consider "architect of the German Reunification" neutral. I rather feel it creates the impression the reunification proceeded along some masterplan created by Kohl. And I (and many others including scholars) would even say he was rather driven by the events and merely reacted to them, but Im not going to discuss this in full detail here. Therefore I would suggest a more neutral expression.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.199.32.41 (talk • contribs) 2007-01-05

This change has since been reverted with the incorrect edit summary "rv vandalism". In my opinion it needs rephrasing but I agree that the sentence with "architect" smacks of POV. What is the sentence actually meant to express in objective terms?--Boson 06:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I would say "driven by events" position downplays a little too much of what Kohl personally accomplished. There is a slight consensus (normally historians on the centre-right, but a lot of centre-left historians as well) that had the Chancellor of West Germany been a Social Democrat in 1989, Germany might miss reunification and we will probably still see two German states today. "A person of his time" type of argument can only carry weight to certain stage and German reunification is a type of singular events that the standard modernist/postmodernist social-economic context explanation on its own is inadequate. --JNZ (talk) 06:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
"He oversaw the end of the Cold War and is widely regarded as the mastermind of German reunification."
Mastermind? Many people in Germany don´t see it in that way. Actually they think the end of the uprising in eastern countries and especially the GDR was a "gift" from history to chancellor Kohl. Many germans joke about Kohls archievement in a way like this: "Wir erinnern uns alle daran wie Helmut Kohl durch die Straßen ging dabei "Ich bin das Volk" rief." ("We all remember Helmut Kohl going around and shouting "I am the people"."). This is because in the GDR the people shouted at demonstration "Wir sind das Volk!" ("We are the people!"). This is a famous slogan from the time of the reunification. 91.16.214.50 (talk) 19:42, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Public perception[edit]

I think this part of the article is biased against Kohl. It is anyway difficult to write such a paragraph without being subjective. Probably this part of the article should be deleted.

91.36.122.93 20:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I think this part is biased both ways. If Kohl is described as one of the most popular politicians in Germany, I think we must be talking about another politician. If you ask me, he was never overly popular. So unless someone could quote some poll or some other link that shows Kohl's high popularity compared to other German politicians I would strongly suggest removing that part about Kohl being one of the most popular politicians. I think that is nonsense. By the way while the German version of the article talks about the "Birne" satire as well it doesn't mention aanything about perceived high popularity at all. 75.175.44.93 (talk) 19:14, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Constitution of the first cabinet Kohl[edit]

Hello LessHeard vanU,

I do not understand why you critize and even reverted my edit.

Helmut Kohl was voted as chancellor on Friday 01st October, his minister were confirmed on Monday 04th October 1982. On Sunday, our parliament Bundestag never has session on Sundays and there was definitely no session on the 03rd October 1982!

Please explain to me why you consider the correction of a wrong date as vandalism?

Best regars YOG'TZE —Preceding unsigned comment added by YOG'TZE (talk • contribs) 11:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I apologise for mistaking your edits as disruptive. The previous date had been unchallenged for some time, and date changing is a frequent edit made by people wishing to invalidate Wikipedia. I would suggest, so that people like me do not make the same mistake, that you use the edit summary to explain your reasons for your edit. Thanks, LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:35, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Dear LessHeard vanU,

Many thanks for your quick response! Yes, I can imagine that there is a lot of vandalism fon Helmut Kohl's article, in German edition of wikipedia it is even worse, I guess. Of course, I will explain future changes made from my side in order to avoid any misunderstandings. Best regards from Germany. YOG'TZE (talk) 21:54, 16 November 2009 (UTC)YOG'TZE

Image[edit]

Please stop edit warring around the image to use. I'd prefer the Bundesarchiv image, it's smaller, but clearly of higher quality. The other one is just blurred. --PaterMcFly talk contribs 08:09, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

section CDU finance affair needs update[edit]

The section about the CDU finance affair needs an update. In the meantime, Schreiber was extradited to Germany and sentenced to eight years of jail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.234.100.106 (talk) 12:48, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Relevant[edit]

I was going to update the information on the Karlheinz Schreiber court case, but came to the conclusion that is not sufficiently relevant and should be removed. If it were to stay, its relevance would have to be indicated in the text. In any case, like most of the section it is unsourced. As I understand WP:BLP all of this unsourced text should be removed without delay. --Boson (talk) 12:34, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Use of Dr. in front of name[edit]

It is general policy in a BLP that a "Dr." is not placed in front of the name. See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Academic_titles for more on this topic. I recently reverted someone's addition of the "Dr." in front of Helmut Kohl. Such addition not only goes against the policy as above, but also is a form of derision, given the recent story around Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, who not only had to drop the title of Dr. following allegations of plagiarism, but also had to resign his presitigious post as Defence Minister in the German government.-- Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg: Baron without a title; German defence minister resigns over plagiarism --Skol fir (talk) 19:59, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Thesis[edit]

Eletronic version of thesis "The Political Developments in the Palatinate and the Reconstruction of Political Parties after 1945 (German)":
(remove blank between h and a:) www.4sh ared.com/document/rwjYMthV/HK_1958_diss_transkript.htm (PDF)

File:Gedenkplatte Mitterrand-Kohl Douaumont.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

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Kohl's seat in the Bundestag[edit]

He obviously had one, so which one was it? Was he elected from a constituency or on a state list? Lockesdonkey (talk) 18:09, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

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Second wife[edit]

Hello, the name of his second wife is Maike Kohl-Richter, see article Helmut Kohl in german wikipedia. Greetings--Buchbibliothek (talk) 17:09, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

@Buchbibliothek: Names of spouses are given by their maiden names. Zwerg Nase (talk) 18:30, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
Thank you, Zwerg Nase. Greetings--Buchbibliothek (talk) 19:09, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Sentence on life after chancellorship[edit]

I don't think "His life after the Chancellorship was overshadowed by a donations scandal and his estrangement from his former protégée Angela Merkel" is a particularly good sentence. While it's true that his life in the immediate years after his chancellorship was overshadowed by the donations scandal, that affair has been rather ancient history and not really received much attention for well over a decade now, and it wasn't mentioned by any of the public figures who commented on his death (Merkel, Schröder, Schulz, Gabriel, and a whole bunch of current and former world leaders). Also, I don't think "estrangement" is an accurate description of his relationship with Merkel. When she became Chancellor, he was immediately invited to the Chancellery and lauded publicly by her, and they have met several times where she has paid tribute to him publicly. He has made some critical comments about her policies in recent years, but "overshadowed" and "estrangement" are far too strong words to describe his relationship with her since she became chancellor. --Tataral (talk) 21:33, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Place of birth[edit]

Helmut Kohl was born in Ludwigshafen in 1930. At the time of his birth, Germany's official name was the German Reich (commonly referred to as the Weimar Republic). Given the political upheaval and emergence of several 'German' polities (Kaiserreich, Weimar, Third Reich, East, West etc.) across the twentieth century, and in the interest of historical fact and accuracy, it would be prudent to have an underlying link directing to the German Reich/Weimar Republic page on his place of birth. In other words, the Germany he died in is not constitutionally, territorially or politically the Germany he was born in.

Some have argued that this is wrong - that historical 'time periods' should not feature in this respect. However, as a riposte to their refusal to reach consensus, I point to the Wikipedia page for Adolf Hitler. This details his place of death as 'Nazi Germany', however, this was never the official name of Germany. In fact, during the Nazi period, Germany continued to use the same official name as the Weimar Republic, the 'German Reich'. There is, therefore, inconsistency across Wikipedia's articles.

As a point of comparison, the articles of numerous historical and contemporary personalities on Wikipedia detail their places of birth as states that are no longer in existence today. This, I believe, is right and historically accurate. It enriches the general information about the person and provides the reader with convenient historical context. 195.147.250.224 (talk) 17:42, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

For this particular article there is no benefit to go against the common rules at WP:OVERLINKING of a well-known geographical location. His place of birth being "Germany" is accurate and sufficient for the needs of this article. The politics at the time of his birth are largely irrelevant to his life. At the time of his birth the country was not called by the unofficial name of Weimar Republic, that was a later appellation meant somewhat as an insult. It has no bearing on his life. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:54, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
'The politics at the time of his birth are largely irrelevant to his life'. I think you'll find that is a stupid remark from a historical and biographical point of view. The country Helmut Kohl was born in and grew up in was about as politically charged and radical as one could imagine. Of course this had an enormous impact on his life - as, indeed, his commitment while Chancellor of West Germany to coordinating a honest academic review of Germans' knowledge of the Holocaust and Nazi past proves. As you will note from the original message, I am not calling for the place of birth to be detailed as the 'Weimar Republic', but by its official name at the time: the 'German Reich' 195.147.250.224 (talk) 18:04, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
What is important about that time in his life is covered in this article. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:26, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia uses common names (in English usage), not official names. The country's common name in English was Germany then and it is Germany now. --Tataral (talk) 18:44, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
The parameter for "birthplace" in the infobox is about geography, and "Ludwigshafen, Germany" (as his birthplace was known as in English then and as it is known as now) is quite sufficient. The same goes for his place of death which 195.147.250.224 tried to change to "Federal German Republic" (a made-up name)[8] --Tataral (talk) 18:39, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Again, both of you have appointed yourselves masters of the universe and refuse to listen to any criticism of your flawed logic. There can be no consensus if one side is refusing to acknowledge where the other is coming from. This is an encyclopaedia and it is its duty to accurately reflect the official and formal details of polities and their historical reality to credulous readers. 'Germany' is far too nebulous and flippant as a concept/word in this regard - especially when referring to a major 20th century figure like Helmut Kohl. There have been several, vastly different German polities over the past century. Given Kohl's reputation as a major personality within that century and his role in overseeing the reunification of East and West Germany in 1990, it is even more incumbent upon us to reflect the historical reality of the state he himself was born in. This enriches the reader's appreciation for the complex and turbulent times he lived through and helped define. 195.147.250.224 (talk) 18:52, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
That is already well-covered in this article and in proper context and order of presentation to the level of what is important to Kohl. What is important to this biography is what happened during his life. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:58, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Yes, but it is important for the page to show consistency and attention to detail - to provide accurate and convenient facts to those who may not have the time to read through the entire article. 195.147.250.224 (talk) 19:03, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
That is the exact purpose of the lead section of all articles. The infobox is for basic facts. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:10, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
This is not relevant for the purpose of briefly mentioning his place of birth and place of death in the geographical sense in the infobox. The common name of his place of birth in English was Ludwigshafen, Germany when he was born and it remains Ludwigshafen, Germany today. Also, the state that he was born in and that he died in was legally – constitutionally and from the perspective of international law – the identical state. This is uncontroversial among scholars of international law and has been affirmed by the Federal Constitutional Court, which ruled that "Die Bundesrepublik Deutschland ist also nicht ‚Rechtsnachfolger' des Deutschen Reiches, sondern als Staat identisch mit dem Staat ‚Deutsches Reich'". France got a totally new system of government and constitution in 1958, but of course France the country is still the same country as the France that existed before the Fifth Republic. --Tataral (talk) 19:01, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
It is clear we are not going to agree on this. From a historical perspective, I believe this is absolutely crucial to understanding and contextualising a major figure of 20th century German history. Moreover, it is a basic biographical and uncontroversial fact that simply doesn't invalidate international law anyway. What is being proposed by you two is tantamount to retrospective editing and obfuscation of past realities - replacing them with what are essentially inadequate and misleading points. We can all agree that 'Germany' as an ideal is centuries-old - that is not the issue here. The issue is that the state Kohl was born in, the German Reich (Weimar Republic) is not the same state as the Federal Republic of Germany. In 1949, a new constitution was adopted and there existed a competing German state borne out of the Soviet Zone of occupation until 1990. Mikhail Gorbachev, the last leader of the Soviet Union made the dubious claim that he presided over 'a thousand-year-old state', which, more accurately, was less than 80 years old at the time. I believe it is the duty of pages like this to reflect the contextual realities of the time in question. 195.147.250.224 (talk) 19:19, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Kohl was born in 1930 and died in 2017. East Germany did not exist when he was born and it did not exist when he died, so East Germany is not relevant to his place of birth. The Germany he was born into was the same country as the Germany that exists today; the fact that its system of government was somewhat different doesn't change that. If a country changes its constitution or adopts a new one, it doesn't mean that it becomes a new country. The President of Germany even uses the same presidential standard as the one used when Kohl was born, and some of the articles of the Weimar Constitution remain in force in Germany today. --Tataral (talk) 20:48, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
It was not quite the same country: It was ruled by a Reichskanzler, not a Bundeskanzler. Federalism wasn't such a dominant feature of the State as it is in the Bundesrepublik. Edelseider (talk) 12:43, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Looking at the data of some other notable Germans, country of birth info is terribly inconsistent. So no general rule was applied in the past (I checked Scheel, Albertz, Brandt, Kiesinger and some others). --Nillurcheier (talk) 13:41, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
This discussion is about where Kohl was born in the geographical sense, for the purpose of briefly stating this basic fact in the infobox. In that context, a discussion on how German politics has changed since 1930 is not relevant. No country on the planet looks identical today to what it looked like in 1930. France, Italy and numerous other countries have experienced constitutional changes of the same, if not greater, magnitude from 1930 to today. But that doesn't mean that we cannot state someone's place of birth as "Paris, France" if they were born in 1930. --Tataral (talk) 14:07, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Also, for the record, the title of the head of government doesn't mean anything in this context, and Germany wasn't "ruled" by the Chancellor, it was a parliamentary democracy where power was shared between the President, the cabinet, the parliament and the federal states. And federalism was indeed an important feature of the German state, perhaps even more so during the German Empire, but it was certainly still important during the Weimar Republic, in a way that is roughly comparable to today's system. --Tataral (talk) 14:14, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

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Additions made by OggenheimerWise[edit]

these are gleaned from many newspaper articles published over a period of many years, in Germany. OggenheimerWise (talk) 19:57, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

I reverted again these insertions by @OggenheimerWise:

"During his time in Parliament and in opposition he failed to understand the nature of Germany's obligations and duties after World War II. The most glaring failure on his part was the lack of understanding and interest to make full retribution to the victims of Nazi Germany's atrocities against people in Europe, Russia and North Africa. This is especially true and a sad story for the slave labor of the Nazi era, numbering 15 million persons from Europe and Russia, who were actually members of the peace movement and loyal to the League of Nations. The final compensations that were made, reached those who were still alive in 2005, since the Free Democratic Party (FDP) failed to support this with the Governments of the Chancellors Helmut Schmidt and Willy Brandt.

and The cabinet of Kohl's govt found it very difficult to maintain law and order amidst violent attacks against foreigners and visitors, amidst high rates of unemployment in east German states, thoughtless errors and a poorly implemented program of reunification. It was also suspected, understandably, that childhood trauma from world war II, was lurking in the background among some members of government and administration.

Both paragraphs are not backed by concrete sources, only 5 very general autobiographies, mainly refering to SPD or Green politians are given as source. We need an adequate reference from leading historians or politicians and they should be mentioned by name and proper citation. --Nillurcheier (talk) 08:29, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

I added the OR-template to clarify this issue. --Nillurcheier (talk) 17:02, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
After one week there was not a single comment or explanation for these ammendments, neither by the author, nor by any other person. Since there is no proper sourcing and also no comparabel section in the German Wikipedia, I will revert them soon. --Nillurcheier (talk) 10:20, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

There should be sources. Sources are important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KasiaNL (talk • contribs) 08:54, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Sudetenland, etc.[edit]

The article has: In 1993, Kohl confirmed, via treaty with the Czech Republic, that Germany would no longer bring forward territorial claims as to the pre-1945 ethnic German Sudetenland. This treaty was a disappointment for the German Heimatvertriebene. I dispute that. There was (some) disagreement about relinquishing the claims in Poland; one of the sources given after these sentences explicitly talks about the "Polish side". These territories really had been German prior to the Second World War, and had been given to Polish administration for the time being, that is before a peace treaty, at Potsdam. This peace treaty then happened, under Kohl, in 1990/1991. - The Sudetenland on the other hand had (setting pre-16th century Egerland aside) always been Bohemian, including, it is true, the long time when Bohemia itself was part of multinational Austria; it had been confiscated at gunpoint by Hitler in 1938 and definitely renounced by Brandt in the 1970s (whereas Brandt renounced the Polish territories only "until a peace treaty by a united Germany"). After that, and after definitely renouncing the actual former Eastern territories to Poland in 1990/1991, I doubt anything Kohl did about the Sudetenland two years later raised as much as an eyebrow. (I hadn't myself heard about that to begin with.)--2001:A61:3A4A:2001:E57C:586B:95E0:8024 (talk) 23:13, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

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