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This is a minor point but I believe Netanyahu's degrees at Sloan and MIT should be MS and not SM. In fact, he has Master of Science in Management from Sloan School, which is what other universities call Master in Business Administration, or MBA.
Why does his education say "graduated at the top of his class," when that information is not generally available or shared by universities. I feel a source behind a pay wall making claims that would generally be illegal for a school to verify to a journalist is not exactly an objective thing. I get that people love this guy, but why is there so much bias allowed on this page? This is the entire issue with Wikipedia in a nutshell, it is extremely prone to bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.91.205.86 (talk) 18:18, 29 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 June 2022[edit]
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Add Affiliations section:
Benjamin Netanyahu, the former prime minister of Israel, and his cabinet supported the Dead Sea's candidacy [1] as one of the New 7 Wonders of Nature. NIS 8.75 million were allocated to the promotion of the Dead Sea in the global voting campaign. The site was an Israeli-Jordanian-Palestinian contender in the campaign, and was one of the 28 finalists in the New 7 Wonders of Nature contest. Melita Cameron-Wood (talk) 15:45, 30 June 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Did he also serve as opposition leader between his loss in 1999 and Sharon being Likud's new leader in November 1999? SecretName101 (talk) 00:45, 6 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That wouldn't really be possible since the position didn't officially exist until 2000. Wikipedia's own page for the position also includes unofficial, pre-2000 LoTo's, and doesn't include any Netanyahu tenure from 1999. Totalstgamer (talk) 00:51, 6 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Why is this section here at all? Is his expertise on counter terrorism a political position? Political positions generally refer to how to run a state, not how to fight existential threats... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.91.205.86 (talk) 18:26, 29 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It is not written that the bloc led by him won a majority in the 25th Knesset, and he is going to serve for the sixth time as Prime Minister of Israel in the government that will be sworn in in the coming weeks. דגן דיגן (talk) 15:07, 9 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
None of those things are official yet, i think its best if we wait until he's sworn in and write a full paragraph. Totalstgamer (talk) 15:50, 9 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
About Netanyahu's Hebrew it is written that the bloc led by him won the majority of mandates in the Knesset and he is expected to serve as the Prime Minister of Israel. I believe that Israel is smarter in this matter than the rest of the world and it would be wise if the other languages in Wikipedia learned from the Hebrew entry. דגן דיגן (talk) 09:50, 10 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
why is there no criticism section for one of the top 5 most divisive and criticized political leaders of the last 50 years? This protected page reads like a straight up fluff piece, and there is no mention of any criticisms of this guy.
that is an article published in Israel about the time he called for journalists to be jailed. His own party is looking to prosecute journalists currently, which makes me think it is relevant that he has expressed these types of abhorrent views before. I also think it is telling that the relatively short section of this article relating to Netanyahu's criminal activity is by far the most well sourced portion of this article, and significantly shorter than other portions of this article that only rely on 2 or 3 sources.
Lede is a disaster. Filled with details almost about everything of no relevance to an average Wikipedia reader. Do I, as an average Wikipedia reader, want to know more about the details of how he managed his rotation agreement or the fact that he has championed the settler movement for example? Makeandtoss (talk) 18:49, 29 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The lede as it stands is a fairly reasonable summary of Netanyahu's early life and political history. As per the discussion on criticism we might want to add a paragraph or a few sentences on Netanyahu's ideology and on criticism levied towards him. Totalstgamer (talk) 19:03, 29 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Here are some examples of redundant details:
"Netanyahu later clashed with Sharon, eventually resigning over disagreements regarding the Gaza disengagement plan."
Should be removed entirely.
"after Sharon stepped down to form a new party, Kadima."
Should be removed entirely.
"After the April 2019 election resulted in no party being able to form a government, a second election in 2019 took place. In the September 2019 election, the centrist Blue and White alliance, led by Benny Gantz, emerged slightly ahead of Netanyahu's Likud; however, neither Netanyahu nor Gantz was able to form a government."
Should be shortened to: "Despite three consecutive elections in 2019, neither Netanyahu nor Gantz were able to form a government."
"During Trump's presidency, the United States recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, recognized Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Heights, and brokered the Abraham Accords, a series of normalization agreements between Israel and various Arab states."
This is all about Trump and takes more than half of an entire paragraph of the lede, should be completely removed.
"Since December 2016, Netanyahu has been under investigation for corruption by Israeli police and prosecutors. On 21 November 2019, he was indicted on charges of breach of trust, bribery and fraud. Due to the indictment, Netanyahu was legally required to relinquish all of his ministry posts other than the prime minister position prior to his ousting."
This can be summarized in just one sentence: In 2019, Netanyahu was indicted on charges of breach of trust, bribery and fraud, and thus was legally required to relinquish all of his ministry posts other than the prime minister position prior to his ousting.
Much more could be done, but here's a few examples.
I don't see why most of those should be removed. Netanyahu's resignation over disengagement was an important moment for his political comeback, The reason why Sharon left is a handful of words to provide context, which i think is appropriate. i entirely agree on the elections part.
The trump part is a lot more relevant in context. "Netanyahu made his closeness to Donald Trump, a personal friend since the 1980s, central to his political appeal in Israel from 2016." the latter part demonstrates that the two had a close, working relationship, which is frequently mentioned in reliable sources. The last part is for the most part okay. I agree that the precise date (21 November) isn't particularly important, but its again a matter of building context. I'd love to hear a third opinion though. Totalstgamer (talk) 20:48, 29 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You do realize that nothing in the lede mentions anything of the settler movement he championed as Israel's longest serving prime minister in the past 15 years? That is literally one of the most prominent things about his legacy. Instead we have countless of useless information about inner-Israeli politics, which are of no concern to the average international reader. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:50, 1 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's a distinction you're making entirely on your own. Netanyahu isn't just (or arguably at all) a leader of the settler movement, he's also the longest serving prime minister in Israel's History, and has in many ways been the center of its politics since the nineties. To take the example of Al Jazzera ([1]). The article first mentions his status as Israel's longest-serving leader, followed by a rundown of his Domestic Political History (not too dissimilar from our very own lede), followed by a recap of his corruption trial, then getting to the article's main subject, with fairly minimal focus on his support for settlements, which is a fairly widely-held view on the Israeli Right. An even better example is this BBC article ([2]). Starts by mentioning his most recent comeback, then mentions his political longevity, his relationship with the Palestinians (without mention of the settler movement), then his corruption allegations, followed by another, very similar recap.
Wikipedia doesn't prioritize information based on its editors own analysis, but on the information conveyed by reliable sources, who have generally focused on Netanyahu's role in shaping domestic politics. I also don't see how the word 'useless' ties into all of this. Is information about his corruption trial useless? or his well-covered relationship with Trump? Even when we assign relevance, i'm not sure if we ever make any distinction based on usefulness. (we do, after all, have an entire page for Trump's nicknames). Totalstgamer (talk) 22:11, 1 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes totally my own political hallucinations and completely unrelated to realities on the ground:
"An analysis of planning, construction, population and spending data over the past two decades shows that Mr. Netanyahu was an aggressive builder during his first premiership in the 1990s, when the West Bank settler population rose at roughly three times the total Israeli rate."
"Mr. Netanyahu has taken several steps that make drawing a two-state map particularly problematic, and has declared: "I do not intend to evacuate any settlements.""
"But Mr. Netanyahu is also a focus of international ire because of the cumulative effect of decades of settlement growth"
This is only one example of a 2015 article. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:30, 1 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not saying its unrelated to reality, or that its not a fact. I'm saying its not lede material. You've posted a 2015 NYT article called "Netanyahu and the Settlements", AKA, specifically about them. That doesn't denote how comparatively relevant the information is.
WP:Lede refers to ledes as such: "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. As in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources. Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article."
AKA, the lede should summarize the article and emphasize the most important points. Both the body of the article and reliable sources attempting to denote the relevance of information focus on Netanyahu's domestic agenda, relationship with trump, and his various indictments for corruption charges. That's not to imply that Coverage of Netanyahu's settlement policy is irrelevant, but rather, that the emphasis is put on those other details. For clarity, i never implied that you were lying, or presenting fabricated information, just that you were prioritizing sources, albeit in good faith, through your own judgement. Totalstgamer (talk) 22:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
NYT is one of the most prominent newspaper in the world. The fact that it dedicated an entire article to talk exclusively about one Israeli politician and his settlement policy, that is more than notable (disregarding the tens, possibly hundreds of sources talking about the same thing). The body is filled with references to the settlements, but indeed requires a dedicated subsection; a subsection is dedicated for integration of the Bank of China and not of his settlements policy! I have added a too long notice for the lede until some of these issues are resolved adequately. To be fair, the lede is really good, perfect in fact, until this sentence "From 1984–1988, Netanyahu was Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations." Afterwards it becomes just one huge mess. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:56, 2 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Totalstgamer: I took the initiative to summarize a few sections of the lede. Please review these edits in good faith, as I do, for we all have a genuine interest in the betterment of this article. I think it looks much better now, the summerizations, and I look forward to some assistance from other editors as well. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:24, 2 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I fundamentally disagree with some of the changes you've made.
"Netanyahu began his political career being elected as the chairman of Likud in 1993, becoming Leader of the Opposition" - Factually incorrect, Netanyahu began his political career in 1988 after being elected to the Knesset and becoming Deputy Defense Minister. Maybe a term like "rose to prominence" would be more accurate.
"After the 1996 election, Netanyahu beat Shimon Peres, becoming the first Israeli prime minister elected directly by popular vote, and its youngest-ever." Mostly good, but i'd replace "after" with "in".
"and Netanyahu chose to retire from politics entirely, entering the private sector. Netanyahu later returned to politics, and served as Minister of Foreign Affairs and Minister of Finance, during the latter position initiating major reforms of the Israeli economy that led to growth. Netanyahu returned to the leadership of Likud in December 2005." This is where i think the issues start. This section should mention Ariel Sharon, since he's the man who both Succeeded and Subordinated Netanyahu in the 2000's. The formation of Kadima should undoubtedly be mentioned given its significance to Netanyahu's return to power. I do think the section mentioning Netanyahu's financial preformance is fairly notable. Similarly, his opposition to the disengagement plan should be mentioned.
"In December 2020, the coalition collapsed and a new election was held in March 2021. In his penultimate government, Netanyahu led Israel's response to the COVID-19 pandemic and the 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis. In June 2021, Netanyahu became opposition leader for the third time, before returning as Prime Minister again after the 2022 election." I think this specific shortening isn't very useful. I like the original phrasing more: "In December 2020, this coalition collapsed and a new election was held in March 2021. In his penultimate government, Netanyahu led Israel's response to the COVID-19 pandemic and the 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis. In June 2021, after Naftali Bennett formed a government with Yair Lapid, Netanyahu was removed from the premiership, becoming opposition leader for the third time, before returning as Prime Minister again after the 2022 election." Since the lede is supposed to be a summary, it should provide limited context for Netanyahu's actions, most especially more recent events which people, if you truly insist on focusing on reader interests, would legitimately care about.
I'm more than cool with what you added about the settlements. Its short, concise, and reasonable. As for the section on Netanyahu's criminal trials. "In 2019, Netanyahu was indicted on charges of breach of trust, bribery and fraud., following a three year investigation, Duedue to the indictment, Netanyahu is legally required to relinquishwhich he relinquished all of his ministry posts other than the prime minister position." I have one, mostly unrelated issue with this. I think it might need an update, since, for example, his Trial began in 2020, and Witness testimony began in 2021.
I don't think, frankly, you should have taken the initiative given this dispute. I think we should've worked the changes out in the talk section before implementing them. Regardless, I'm going to take the liberty of implementing most of my proposed changes, then we'll keep it as is until we agree on any additional changes that should be made. Totalstgamer (talk) 11:44, 2 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Too late, it was the only way of forcing some momentum for change. Anyway, the point is not to cater to readers' interest, but to summarize the body. One quick example: a reader will be interested in knowing in the lede that Netanyahu is facing corruption charge; and not that he was accused in 2016, investigated in 2020, witness testimony in 2021. Really, no one cares; in the lede, at least. Same thing I would argue to how was Kadima formed, or why he resigned, etc.
I would propose the following restructuring:
First paragraph: a quick recap on notability - already present and perfect.
Second paragraph: a quick recap on education and career - already present and perfect (Born in Tel Aviv ==> ..was Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations.)
Third paragraph: a quick recap on political career starting from rose to prominence, highlighting timeline of roles in opposition and prime minister, etc. Needs major summerization.
Fourth paragraph: a quick recap on policies, legacy, etc. Needs rewriting away from mostly Trump content. Maybe economic aspect of being finance minister could be included here along with elaboration on his committment to free markets. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:54, 2 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
First things first, you're not supposed to create momentum for change, you're supposed to discuss it in good faith and create consensus for your proposals. Secondly, i think the version that now exists is pretty much perfect. After all, if we want to summarize the body, we do need to provide basic context. I entirely agree on the 2016 date, and the way it was rephrased is good, but it does seem strange to cut an ongoing case off in 2019. As for the whole Kadima issue and why Netanyahu resigned, they're important pieces of information. I'm pretty sure the Al-Jazzera and BBC sources even outright mention them in their own summaries. The fourth paragraph should absolutely not be rewritten any further. Netanyahu's relationship with Donald Trump is firstly, and especially by your own standards, of interest to foreign readers. Secondly, its frequently mentioned in reliable sources, and Thirdly, it was a big deal in its own right during Trump's tenure. I don't think Netanyahu's financial policies need elaboration in the lead, since they're rarely given particular prominence, or are even that consistent. To Summarize, I think we should avoid making further changes on most fronts, and i'll revert any changes you make without consensus. I would like to discuss a way to 'update' the sentence about Netanyahu's trial. Totalstgamer (talk) 13:06, 2 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry, but if anything, the lede is worse than before now. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:47, 4 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Makeandtoss: I entirely agree. @Zeex.rice: made some changes to the lede that i think made it longer than it should be. Zeex, why'd you expand the lede? Totalstgamer (talk) 11:00, 4 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The paragraph are not well-composed, and they do not reflect article length; they often reflect unnecessary recounting of many details that are of no particular importance and could be removed from lede and placed in body. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:37, 5 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
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