Talk:Don Juan
Talk:Don Juan
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Link between Don Juan and Casanova[edit]
There seems to be an inextricable link between Don Juan and Casanova. According to the Article, Casanova actually attended a play about Don Juan. Something I never knew until now. But here's something more interesting. Apparently one of Casanova's ancestors was named "Don Juan Casanova", though I highly doubt he has anything to do with the legend whatsoever. I'm not adding this to the article, but I quote:
" Giacomo Casanova
The memoirs of Jacques Casanova de Seingalt VENETIAN YEARS—CHILDHOOD CHAPTER I My Family Pedigree—My Childhood
Don Jacob Casanova, the illegitimate son of Don Francisco Casanova, was a native of Saragosa, the capital of Aragon, and in the year of 1428 he carried off Dona Anna Palofax from her convent, on the day after she had taken the veil. He was secretary to King Alfonso. He ran away with her to Rome, where, after one year of imprisonment, the pope, Martin III., released Anna from her vows, and gave them the nuptial blessing at the instance of Don Juan Casanova, majordomo of the Vatican, and uncle of Don Jacob. All the children born from that marriage died in their infancy, with the exception of Don Juan, who, in 1475, married Donna Eleonora Albini, by whom he had a son, Marco Antonio.
In 1481, Don Juan, having killed an officer of the king of Naples, was compelled to leave Rome, and escaped to Como with his wife and his son; but having left that city to seek his fortune, he died while traveling with Christopher Columbus in the year 1493." Dessydes (talk) 06:28, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- That reads like a badly invented tale. Pope Martin III (actually Marinus II) reigned 942–946, Pope Martin IV reigned 1281-1285. Str1977 (talk) 14:03, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Shipman's Tale[edit]
Just reading the shipman's tale and noticed the adulterous monk Chaucer repeatedly refers to as 'daun John'. Any possibility of a connection here? Asking more out of idle interest than any real conviction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.77.38.67 (talk) 21:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
unidentified Don Juan themed work[edit]
I have a recording of a song/album about Don Juan with no identification and I'm not sure if it's listed here. The music is symphonic and cinematic, possibly a film score, and the recording sounds to be from the 1960s or 1970s. Some of the lyrics are "Don Juan, you are Don Juan, you're a woman, sent from heaven, to hell, to hell..." The male vocalist sounds almost a bit like David Bowie. If anyone knows what or which work this is, it would be greatly appreciated and I would add it to the Works list if it's not already there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.205.247.9 (talk) 03:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Michel Magne, Boris Bergman - Don Juan (extrait de la musique du film 'Don Juan 1973') - https://www.discogs.com/Michel-Magne-Bande-Originale-Du-Film-Don-Juan-1973/release/2338318 - 176.111.79.150 (talk) 13:13, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Strange POV segment[edit]
Is "Don Juan's legendary stories makes for a great influence on its weak-minded readers. It has been documented that readers of Don Juan often change their lives to an anti-social mindset in attempts to idolize Don Juan" really part of this article and NPOV? It looks like something a troll put there.
– Uh, yeah. I'm taking it out. Wordie 15:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Why unlink Don and Juan? -- Error 22:02, 9 Sep 2003 (EDT)
La Celestina may be an earlier appearance, with Don Juan as a minor character. Sparky
Byron[edit]
Byron's famous version of the tale is somewhat different from the traditional Don Juan; does it perhaps deserve its own article?
If I'm not missinformed, Don Juan is now a catholic saint. We have all observed the complicated relation the Catholic church has to sex, but hopefully Don Juan had some other pages in his C.V. then just a string of conquests. 213.199.75.34 15:58, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps _I_ am misinformed, but how the hell could DJ be "now a catholic saint"? Seems an absurd idea on the face of it. How the above comment has lingered unquestioned for almost four years is intriguing. People apparently will believe any bizarre statement regarding the Catholic Church....
Other Don Juans[edit]
Don Juan is also a character who appears in Journey to Ixtlan, The Teachings of Don Juan and A Separate Reailty, all books by Carlos Castaneda. He is a hunter, sorcerer, teacher and guide to psychotropic plants. No relation to the Don Juan of the current article.
Also closely related is Chaucer's Daun John, who lends the money of a husband to a wife, is repaid in sex by the wife, then leaves after telling the husband his wife owes him the money. Since this was written around 1386, it deserves mention as one of the earliest recordings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.243.37 (talk) 11:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
---Since Juan Matus is in no way related to this character, I am removing Carlos Castaneda's link from the article.
Most agree that Don Juan is based on a legendary 17th century Spanish nobleman Don Juan Tenorio.??[edit]
Most do not agree that he is based on Don Juan Tenorio. The family existed in Sevilla on Tirso de Molinas time, but no source exist about a libertine Don Juan Tenorio. Some have mentioned a Miguel Mañara as model for Don Juan, other have found likeness in contemporary theater, but it is all speculation and should be placed in a chapter called Speculations over the origin of the Don Juan character. I will erase it. Jakosa 11:04, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- There's a curious parallel in some mediaeval english poems - I know of 2 which feature a generic "Sir John" character as lover (and another 2 featuring a "Jack"). Could be that in Spanish as well it was the generic name for Johnny Q. Seducer types, but then got turned into a specific myth. (For reference: Penguin Classics' "Late Medieval English Lyrics and Carols", poems 109-112.) godescalc 18:02 27 November 2006 (GMT+1)
The Statue[edit]
My sources say the statue was in a church. However, the article says the statue was in a cemetery. I just want to know which is true, or whether they are both true. My sources say Don Juan was in a church, because he had committed a crime and hid in the church to hide from the authorities, since one could not be arrested in a church in those days.
-Technically they are both right. Most legends depict the graveyard as being attached to the church. According to Washington Irving's Don Juan: A Spectral Research the church itself and the graveyard are both part of a convent- specifically the convent of San Fransisco. This was also, according to legend, the same convent where Don Manuel de Mañara attended his own funeral. -ALD
it:Don Juan[edit]
I had removed the it:Don Juan link since it was linking to the "Don Juan" swedish tv series by Ingmar Bergman. The Italian Wikipedia doesn't have an article about Don Juan/Don Giovanni character yet. Unfortunately a bot added the it:wiki link again and I really can't start an edit war against a bot :D --Absinthe88 01:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Mozart[edit]
Don Giovanni is an opera comique by W.A. Mozart depecting the story of Don Juan that is completely unmentioned in the article. I personally do not know enough to write the article myself.
Pronunciation[edit]
It would be useful to have a pronunciation guide to how to say "Don Juan" - I've heard at least three ways of saying it. Davidbod 11:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- The problem might be that "Don Juan" is pronounced differently in different parts of the world? In Sweden for example, it is common to pronounce it in swedish, rather than in spanish. Oddjob se 12:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- Huh? I'm Swedish and have never heard anything else than a Spanish pronounciation (or at least an attempt of it). I'll come back when I hear someone say Herr Johan ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.100.46.246 (talk) 16:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Except for radio announcers and university professors, who invariably pronounce it "Don Jew-Ann", most of us pronounce it "Don Won". No less an authority than Alex Trebek pronounced it that way on Jeopardy a couple of weeks ago, and went out of his way to point out that this was not a mistake, to avoid the letters, as he put it. So why is what sounds like a hillbilly affectation considered the "true" pronunciation? I consider this to be one of the great unsolved mysteries of this century. Ivan Denisovitch (talk) 02:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- No less an authority than the poet intended a duality in the (mis)pronunciation of "Juan." The expected pronunciation would, of course, be "wahn," as you indicated. But the poet played on mispronunciation, and this is evidenced by the rhyme scheme. Byron wanted his poem to be read with the hero's last name pronounced "joo-wahn," as if to make fun of himself, his readers and his character. Granted, I haven't re-read the poem in twemty years and can't be bothered to look this all up, but am surprised it isn't common knowledge recorded here. My authority is the rhyme scheme itself: "new one" and "true one" in (as I recall) the opening canto. This isn't hard. Just read it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Salon Essahj (talk • contribs) 02:35, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
The only alternative pronunciation of which I'm aware is in Byron's Don Juan (Joo-ahn), which is only done to fit the rhyme scheme. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamdummar (talk • contribs) 04:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe this alternative pronunciation doesn't exist at all and Byron was just using slant rhyme.Samael jr. (talk) 02:39, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I've heard it with the J mostly from Brits (cf. Quixote rendered "kwik-sot", virtually unheard of in the US). Can anyone from the UK confirm whether this is common, or considered pedantic/pretentious even there?
And by "3 versions", I think the OP was including Jooan, 1 syllable, and Joo-ahn, 2 syllables, separately. Having rarely heard EITHER version (again, except among Brits), I cannot comment further.
Or perhaps he was distinguishing a "W" version from an "HW" version? A distinction mainly lost on my Yank ears, but stressed ad nauseum back in grade school English. 66.105.218.68 (talk) 01:57, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Don Juan and Don John[edit]
I always got the idea that Don Juan initially got started as indirect myths about Don John of Austria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Austria
Who supposedly thought of invading England and marrying Mary Queen of Scotts but died before it amounted to anything. It would seem a mistake far more easy to make when you read history books where Don John's name is translated into English as Don Juan rather than Don John.
Is it reasonable that the myth of Don Juan has nothing to do with Don John?
Editilde22 03:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- John and Juan aren't even different names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.240.233.94 (talk) 02:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- It's a bit comical to say the "Don John's name is translated into English as Don Juan rather than Don John", when "Don Juan" isn't actually a translation.
- But given the banality of the name, literally translated "Sir John", the mere name is not enough to speculate about a link. Str1977 (talk) 13:51, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
religious themes[edit]
One thing the article doesn't mention is that several Don Juan plays had religious implications. In Molina's play Juan repeatedly says he will do penance later; and of course "later" never comes; in Moliere's version Don Juan is depicted as an sceptic who fears no punishment after death. The 19th century version focuses on whether Don Juan is redeemible, while Shaw's MAN AND SUPERMAN portrays topsy-turvy versions of Heaven and Hell. 76.122.75.89 (talk) 02:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
They should also mention Don Juan's well known phrase "Tan largo me lo fiáis," that he lives by. Which means that death and punishment is not something he'll worry about at the moment because he'll have time to do penance later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mondragonj103 (talk • contribs) 14:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Missing some refrences[edit]
Mainly the book by Lord Byron in 1819 if it is missing that one, which is by a relaitivley important person, then it is probally missing some more.
pronunciation[edit]
I removed the comment "close to the /ˌdɒnˈdʒuːan/ common in Britain today", since the sound value of /a/ is undefined. However, if someone can confirm what it was supposed to be, we might need a rewrite of the paragraph, since the US pronunciation isn't relevant. kwami (talk) 08:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Also in Britain it would be /dɔːn/ not /dɒn/. Stuart M (talk) 20:52, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, you clearly don't pronounce that like "dawn" in Britain. --88.65.127.73 (talk) 18:13, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
the chronology[edit]
The chronology has so many entries in it as to render it next to worthless. The point of an encyclopedia is to point a person new to a subject to the important information. An exhaustive (or attempted exhaustive) list fails in that the person new to the subject has no way to figure out which entries are the important ones. As it stands the chronology has so many entries as to render it as bad as no chronology at all. Someone in the know really needs to trim probably 3/4's or more of it. Ekwos (talk) 06:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, but only in part. The chronology needs some trimming, but mostly it needs detailed annotations as to the significance of the single works. For instance, which ones are "original" and which ones are imitations, parodies and derivative works of others, to which form or genre does each belong (which ones are operas, plays, novels etc.?), which has some special reason of interest (say, the first opera, the first work in English, a work that is wildly different from other works by the same author, and so on), which is well-known for some reason (a song from it has become popular, say), and so forth. All in all, it might become a well-structured survey of Don Juan-derived works, and perhaps a separate article. Goochelaar (talk) 13:40, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
- Also agree, that the list of works should be shortened. I also noticed that they mentioned the work by Tirso de Molina as the original work, but they should add his real name to it. He was commonly known as Tirso de Molina, but his real name was Gabriel Téllez. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mondragonj103 (talk • contribs) 14:44, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
reverted spurious edits[edit]
Someone inserted that Don Juan originated with an azerbaijani spy, I thought this sounded spurious at best, and reverted it to the version that existed previously, from december 10th.
Donquigleone (talk) 18:50, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
"Seduced"?[edit]
Is it really accurate to say that Don Juan's behavior was consistently "seduction" all the way from his first appearance? True enough, his behavior in the first story would have at the time been called "seduction", but not today. Seduction suggests making the woman desire him, but in the original it seemed that his normal pattern was to trick women into sleeping with him thinking he was someone else, someone the woman was truly committed to. This isn't tempting or enticing the woman to infidelity. This is deceit, and even qualifies as rape under some jurisdictions, since the women would not have consented if they knew it wasn't who they expected. I recognize that all his incarnations have been described as a seducer, but I must question whether it's appropriate to say that the original was a seducer consistent with the rest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.30.50.240 (talk) 19:02, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Shapeshifter[edit]
Please explain the word 'shapeshifter'. 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:65BF:7DE1:C67C:7AE2 (talk) 20:15, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
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