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Talk:Six Nations Championship

Talk:Six Nations Championship

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Former good article nomineeSix Nations Championship was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 4, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed

Six nations wins[edit]

This table has Scotland with 1 win and Wales 1 when it should be 2 for Wales and 0 for Scotland. Can't find any way to edit it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.98.206 (talk) 23:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All-time table[edit]

I've removed the all-time table as it's not particularly useful due to different numbers of points being given for a win over the years, as well as various scoring systems being used in rugby union as a whole since the tournament was started in the 19th century. – PeeJay 21:09, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Most Trophies[edit]

The Most Trophies tag refers to the entire history of the tournament - a bit misleading since the page is called the Six Nations Championship. It's a useful statistic but I think it should be split into two 1) 6 Nations and 2) All Time. David T Tokyo (talk) 09:41, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it misleading? The competition hasn't changed other than France and Italy joining over the years. The name simply reflects the number of teams involved. The specifics about the number of titles are available in the "Results" section of the article. – PeeJay 19:47, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the answer - thanks. I found it misleading because Wales haven't won the most Six Nation Championship trophies which is what the page declares itself to be about. If the Page was called "The Home, 5 and 6 Nation Championships" it would be completely correct. David T Tokyo (talk) 16:16, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The tournament has never gone by that name. We use the most recent name, as that is the least confusing thing to do. And in fact, Wales have won the most trophies, it just happens that a lot of them came before the tournament became the Six Nations. Any name changes are (or at least should be) explained in the article prose, so I don't see an issue. – PeeJay 16:39, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There have been three different tournaments, not one. The title of this article, and the very first sentence about this article, refer exclusively to just ONE of those tournaments. David T Tokyo (talk) 08:47, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's nonsense. There has been just one tournament, which has expanded over time. It is the same tournament with different eras. – PeeJay 14:43, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So Rugby World have it wrong? "Twenty years ago, before the first-ever Six Nations in 2000, we had qualms. Could this new competition ever be as good as the five-team tournament it was replacing?" David T Tokyo (talk) 17:02, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they do. Check the Six Nations site and see how they record the history of the tournament. I think you'll find it extends back beyond 2000. – PeeJay 18:04, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the advice but I checked the site before my previous post. The Six Nations Website refer to it - several times - as "The Championship". That's not how it's referred to here. David T Tokyo (talk) 18:50, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Surely it's just the same tournament with varying numbers of teams over the years? We don't regard it as a separate event in the 1930s when France were excluded, for example. Say Scotland won the 2021 tournament - no-one would say it was their first-ever title would they? --Bcp67 (talk) 18:13, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting point. I would argue - strongly - that many would be talking about Scotland's first-ever 6 Nations trophy. David T Tokyo (talk) 18:56, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly when it went from 5 to 6 it was the same tournament, just more teams. Clearly with the event having the number of teams in the title meant a rename, otherwise I don't see it is any different to any other sports expansion. Nigej (talk) 18:19, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Nigel. I'm sure that was also the same when it went from 4 to 5. But that's not my point. The 6 Nations championship is defined by the period of its existence - as the stats elsewhere on the page make only too clear. It is not the sum of its predecessors. That is something else entirely; an "all-time" stat (a perfectly valid stat, in my opinion).David T Tokyo (talk) 18:51, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. The 6 Nations is just the current name of the event. Many sports events change their names but we still regard them as continuations of the previous event. The UEFA Champions League article covers the old European Cup too. Stats should cover the whole period. We can split into periods if that's useful but that is secondary. Nigej (talk) 19:05, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. UEFA does treat the Champions League as a separate era of the tournament in terms of classifying stats, but it's still a continuation of the same competition. – PeeJay 19:11, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and no one would claim Real Madrid have only won seven European Cup titles. – PeeJay 19:13, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Of course they wouldn't. We were calling it the European Cup (an abbreviation) back in the '50's. We've only been calling this the 6 Nations since 2000. HOWEVER ... I think this has run as far as it can. Let's leave it there - and thanks. David T Tokyo (talk) 19:27, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Don't get me wrong, I think there's value to recognising the different eras of the tournament, but the infobox isn't the place to do that. – PeeJay 19:49, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction[edit]

These are currently the six highest-ranked teams in Europe - this introductory sentence should probably be changed or removed altogether. Georgians have passed Italy as of February and even if that proves to be temporary, we can't really always track who's in the lead and edit the article accordingly --Tokoko (talk) 20:19, 12 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Removed it, the statement couldn't be supported by the ref cited, as you mention. Someone might be able to put in a better wording. --Bcp67 (talk) 21:15, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Most titles[edit]

Seems to be a problem with noting in the lead that both England and Wales have won 39 championships, including shared titles. While England hold the record for outright wins, both nations share the record for overall titles; while a shared title is (almost) impossible now, for much of the tournament's history it was possible and happened from time to time - three times in six seasons in the late 1980s, for example. I think this ought to be reflected. The infobox shows England having the most titles with 39, 29 outright and 10 shared - if we're going to show that, surely Wales' 39 championships (27 outright and 12 shared) should get equal credit? --Bcp67 (talk) 09:01, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, The problem is above all to consider the tournaments of 1888 and 1889 as completed whereas most serious sources consider them not completed and do not give winners for these two editions. Cf. #Discrepancies with French Wikipedia. GabrieL (talk) 09:18, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
May I point out that Wikipedia does give winners for these editions and there is no mention of those editions not being completed besides "England did not participate" in Tripple Crown and Calcutta Cup columns. The 1885, 1897, 1898 and 1972 Tournaments are the only one that are marked as "Not completed". Therefore I would say that we should either mention both nations as shared record holders or mark the 1888 and 1889 tournaments as "Not completed" just like the other "Not completed" editions. The mixed version is just confusing and considering that Wales may still win the 2021 edition we might end up with England and Wales mentioned as record holders with 39 and 40 wins, respecively?! --NainDeathlegs (talk) 15:03, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hello NainDeathlegs, Refer to the sources mentioned on this section Talk:Six Nations Championship/Archive 1#Discrepancies with French Wikipedia, until 2020 (maybe change the next week), according to me, Wales has "only" 38 wins (not 39) and yes, 1888 and 1889 tournaments must be "not competed" and no with a winner team. GabrieL (talk) 15:02, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Welsh Rugby Union doesn't recognise their win in 1888 with "Wales have won the Championship outright in 1893... The first shared title was with Ireland in 1906" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.130.187 (talk) 22:25, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The totals seem incorrect. Wales are listed as having 11 Home Nations wins (7 outright, 4 shared). But according to the current table, they only have 8 wins (6 outright, 2 shared). Greenman (talk) 01:22, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Home Nations begins again in 1932–1939 where Wales pick up another outright win, giving them 7 outright, but it should only be 3 shared, give that Welsh Rugby Union don't acknowledge the shared win in 1888 SFK64z (talk) 13:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

All the trophies contested between two teams[edit]

Regarding the Calcutta Cup, the Millennium Trophy, the Auld Alliance Cup etc., do these belong in the Championship section and in the winners section on the sidebar for each tournament? It seems to me it's giving undue weight to fixtures between particular teams, and it seems particularly excessive given that about half the fixtures in the tournament now have these trophies. I don't think it really reflects the notability of the trophies to give them such high standing. With the Calcutta Cup maybe it has some on account of its age, but if you look at this BBC article the Garibaldi Trophy isn't even mentioned. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60281535 Rambo Apocalypse (talk) 14:59, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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