Talk:Miloš Obilić

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Archives

Archive 1

di Lellio, again :([edit]

di Lellio was already subject on this page, as it can be seen, and it was declined over and over again. Do you have any NEW source that can actually bring something new and offer the reason to include this in article? Thank you for peaceful communication. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 08:52, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sadko's revert[edit]

So Ottoman miniature has no place here but 19th century fictional paintings has? What's your reason for your revert? Please explain. Beshogur (talk) 20:21, 12 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Do you have any sources to offer for the last edit? Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 20:47, 12 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Sadko: please check below killed himself shortly afterwards and The Sultan's men cut Miloš into pieces with swords and axes. For the miniature, check this. Beshogur (talk) 21:20, 12 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I do not see it as needed in the infobox, even more so because there are two opposite views and we have only a few usable source about Obilić. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 00:03, 13 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Lead sentence[edit]

Sigh. I really fail to see what's the big deal here. The current lead sentence reads "Miloš Obilić was a legendary Serbian knight who is reputed to have been in the service of Prince Lazar during the Ottoman invasion of Serbia in the late 14th century". Now, being a knight in someone's service does not seem to be much notable, does it?

Per MOS:FIRST, The first sentence should tell the nonspecialist reader what or who the subject is, and often when or where. and, particularly For topics notable for only one reason, this reason should usually be given in the first sentence. Obilić is first and foremost remembered and celebrated as the Murad's assassin at the Battle of Kosovo, which I expressed in no uncertain terms as Miloš Obilić was a legendary Serbian knight in the service of Prince Lazar purported to be the assassin of the Ottoman Sultan Murad at the 1389 Battle of Kosovo. So everything is there: legend, Murad, 1389 and Kosovo. Now, Spirit Fox99, can you plainly explain what's "more comprehensive" in the original and which "pertinent" information I erased? Per WP:BOLD, I'm not required to seek consensus prior to editing, and basically reshuffling of two sentences hardly constitutes "drastic changes". No such user (talk) 12:33, 12 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I feel as though the overall context is clearer to the first-time reader by adding the 'Ottoman invasion of Serbia in the 14th century'. It gives a more complete picture of the situation which led to his notable action, and it does so through the simple addition of only one sentence. The lead is supposed to give a quick overview, and I feel as though the original version provided that to better degree. It may seem hypercritical, but I'm putting myself in the shoes of someone who knows absolutely nothing about the topic or subject at hand. Spirit Fox99 (talk) 13:05, 12 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So find a suitable place to restore the link to History of Ottoman Serbia instead of reverting wholesale. WP:STATUSQUO: If you see a good-faith edit which you believe lowers the quality of the article, make a good-faith effort to reword instead of just reverting it. Really, reverting causes conflict and friction. In my opinion, "assassination of ... Ottoman Sultan ... in 1389 battle" provides sufficient context, but even if you reasonably disagree, there's plenty of room to establish it. No such user (talk) 13:27, 12 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I respect edits made in good faith, and make honest efforts to accommodate constructive variations. In this case, I feel that the original version did not need changing, and was well suited for the article. It provided the background context of what made his action so notable. He helped in combating against an expansionist power. It's a large part of his notability, and was nicely summarized through the sentence in question. Spirit Fox99 (talk) 14:27, 12 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It's hard to argue against "I like it" arguments, so I'll give up. No such user (talk) 16:54, 12 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Infobox removed[edit]

The infobox was recently removed completely from the article. In my opinion, it provides a clear and quick summary of important information. I would like to request its reinstatement. Spirit Fox99 (talk) 12:34, 12 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I explained why I removed it, but I'll elaborate: the information it purports to carry is trivial and not useful:

It fails to explain that the subject (or what we know about thim) is mythical, and treats him like a real person
Birth date was listed as "Unknown" so useless
Death date was listed as "15 June 1389", which is unsourced and uncertain (since we don't know he even existed)
Death place: Nobody knows what District of Branković was, and that Kosovo Polje was there
Occupation: knight. Obvious from the first sentence.
Known for: Assassination of Murad I. Also obvious from the first sentence (the one you reverted).

As I said, I'm not against infoboxes in principle, but this one looks very unprofessional. I mean, do what you want, I'm tired of writing paragraphs explaining every little change. No such user (talk) 12:44, 12 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I totally agree with the removal of the infobox. Such infoboxes are used for real people, not for ones that were more likely products of folk tales. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:53, 12 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What cannot be explained in the infobox is done so throughout the article, with supporting sources. The infobox is useful in its ability to provide a quick summary of information from the article and present it clearly and effectively. It's a key reason why an infobox is used.

There are early accounts, that are referenced in the article, that do describe him as being the assassin. There may be other theories provided, or speculations, but Wikipedia is written based on the general consensus from numerable sources, not just a few. What a reader deduces from them becomes their own individual POV, but that does not expel other credible accounts.

If information is present in the lead or body paragraphs it does not make it useless in the infobox. In fact, most articles have information provided in the infobox that has been presented throughout the article itself. It's just a quick-snap.

The date of death is assumed to be the date of the battle, based on accounts which have him dying on that day.

If 'nobody knows' what something is, it does not make it less helpful as a description. The reader is also provided with supporting links in order to do further research if they wish to do so. Spirit Fox99 (talk) 20:22, 12 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The average reader will be confused by reading the article because it has no clear delimitation between historical events and folk legends.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:13, 20 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

1. It fails to explain that the subject (or what we know about thim) is mythical, and treats him like a real person how do you know he's "mythical", so both Serbian and Ottoman sources talking about the same mythical person? There's a clear difference between legend and myth. 2. Birth date was listed as "Unknown" so useless no its not. 3. Death date was listed as "15 June 1389", which is unsourced and uncertain (since we don't know he even existed) that's the date of the battle and of course he died after assassinating Murad I. 4. Nobody knows what District of Branković was, and that Kosovo Polje was there Really? Perhaps your knowledge is not much, but how doesn't nobody know what District of Branković was? 5. Occupation: knight. Obvious from the first sentence. and? extra information. 5. Known for: Assassination of Murad I. Also obvious from the first sentence (the one you reverted). again, that's what the infoboxes stand for. Beshogur (talk) 18:21, 20 August 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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